As a Christian, it is literally impossible for me to imagine the non-existence of God.
I have been a born again Christian for 9 years this December, and I absolutely love it! Everything about Jesus I love! Honestly, I don’t know what I would do without the love, peace, and joy He brings my life! He has given me life!
Now, I know many atheists just read that last paragraph, rolled their eyes, probably sighed a little, then saluted a picture of Charles Darwin hanging on their wall above bed (no, I’m kidding about the last one), and my question is why?
I’ve had the priviledge (and I am not being sarcastic at all, I truly count it a priviledge) to hold conversations with several atheist during my career on wordpress, so I’ve already heard the whole, “No evidence”, “Evolution”, “Big Bang” arguments. And from a Christian, the evidence is there, evolution makes sense on a elephants have bigger ears in some locations and smaller ones in others level but not in an animal completely changing into another species way, and the Big Bang doesn’t make sense at all-where did all the stuff that Banged come from?
Jesus has changed my life, not religion. Religion sends people to Hell. Just going to church sends people to Hell. Having a relationship with God, not religion, is the true essence of Christianity.
So, without the cliche arguments, my question to you, atheist, is, “Why is it so hard for you to love Jesus?” Not interested in evolution vs. creation pillow fights. I want to hear the real you. Tell me why you can’t love Jesus.
Tags: Atheism, Atheist, Bible, Christianity, Jesus, Religion
November 12, 2008 at 3:13 pm |
I too cannot imagine life without Christ!
I have asked other atheist friends to explain to me why their way is better- even if I am wrong, is my life not richer and more full because of the peace, hope, love and grace that I carry with me on a daily basis? They have even proven medically that those with a strong faith live longer, happier lives!
So far, none have had an answer and in several cases, the asking of this question led to subsequent belief in God.
Check out our blogs-
Wild Horse Hope Ministries
A place of healing and hope for kids and families
http://www.wildhorsehope.wordpress.com
Prairie Perspective
Tales from the Prairie-Recipes from the Ranch
http://www.prairieranch.blogspot.com
November 12, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
sjgwin,
Thanks for taking the time to read my blog and post a reply!
Life with Jesus is absolutely amazing, I completely agree! I am very interested to hear the responses from some atheists, REAL ones, not the overused ones.
November 12, 2008 at 4:55 pm |
You put forward a point, that you think evolution to be false and then you immediately close the door to analysis of that point by saying that you don’t want a pillow fight? Sounds awfully like unfair debating technique. But if you insist, I won’t bring-up the topic of origins.
Through the post you have described a personal relationship that you have with your god, that is fine, I have no problems with what people want to do to themselves. But that is not where Christianity ends; ultimately it is not a personal relationship. Religious folk have a need to “bring the holy spirit to others”. That is when I disagree. If you want to tell other people what to do, if you place restrictions on science for religious reasons and if you stifle education in the name of religion it will be challenged.
That’s an appeal to personal incredulity. Just because you cannot imagine it, you are saying that it is therefore false. It is a form of fallacious thinking.
You ask why it is so hard for me to love Jesus? Well, I find it hard to love thor, mithra, baal and satan also, why didn’t you ask why I don’t love these other imaginary figures?
Of course I should mention that I too was a Christian in my youth. I had fully convinced myself that I had given myself to Jesus. It was with critical reasoning, education and a thirst for understanding the word that I came to see the man behind the curtain.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” – Carl Sagan (1934 – 1996)
November 12, 2008 at 11:02 pm |
James,
Thank you for you time in reading and responding to my blog.
As for evolution, you see it as true, I see it as false. We could argue in circles, but chances are, neither of would convince the other. If you like, we can though.
“You ask why it is so hard for me to love Jesus? Well, I find it hard to love thor, mithra, baal and satan also, why didn’t you ask why I don’t love these other imaginary figures?”
Because the others don’t love you. They haven’t given their life in your place, and they don’t offer forgiveness, eternal life, grace, peace…
I’m sorry, friend, but if you were TRULY a Christian then, you’d still be now. You were never truly a Christian…may have acted like one and looked the part and even convinced yourself you were…but you weren’t, if you claim to truly be an atheist now.
What good do you think Carl Sagan can do for you? Notice the year he died. Jesus died, too. The difference is, Jesus is alive now. It is a fact of history that He was resurrected.
If you like, you can trust a dead man, but I’ll trust Jesus.
It would be a shame for you to go to Hell because you misused the brain God gave you.
November 13, 2008 at 5:27 am |
You seem to have missed the point. They are imaginary figures. You ask why I don’t love Jesus but you fail to ask why I don’t love Santa Claus. When I was a child Santa loved me, he even brought presents so why don’t I love him back? Exactly the same question.
This is a fallacy referred to as the “No true Scotsman” fallacy, look it up. If you start comparing Christians then I am telling you that you will only find that you are the only true Christian in the world. Shouldn’t that concern you that you are thinking fallaciously? You even said in the post at the top …
I don’t know where you got the idea from, but I have never claimed to be a true atheist (or a true Christian for that matter).
Carl Sagan is only able to do for me what my teachers, lecturers, and other authors I have read can do for me. Broaden my understanding of the world and delight in the splendour of the Universe, the capabilities of the human mind and the future we are building together.
November 13, 2008 at 11:06 am |
Hmm… My knee-jerk reaction was similar to James’, but James is doing a good job of shoring up the old firm. I’ll take a risk, and try a different route.
Before I say anything, let me emphasize this: Ultimately, my professed opinion about the state of the world can only depend on how I honestly view that world to be. I will always follow the weight of the evidence; intellectual integrity will permit me nothing else.
That said, I get the feeling that you (nevi) are after something a little less cerebral and a bit more emotional than all that, so I’m gonna try and share my emotional relationship with my atheism, since that seems to be what you were after. Just keep in mind that I stand firm that what is really true must always triumph over what I would like to be true.
Okay, disclaimer over, let’s get cracking:
Pigeon Mountain is a quick drive from my house. It’s not actually a mountain – that’s just the name. It’s a big hill though. I pass it on the way home some sometimes. Sometimes I’ll pass it at night if I’m coming home from a movie or something. And very occasionally – once every six months or more if I’m having a rough patch – I’ll get the urge to go climb it at night.
At a brisk walk, it takes me about five minutes to get to the top – so no, it’s not all that far, but it’s high enough. I don’t know if I imagine it or not, but it feels like I get less light pollution when I’m that far above the level of the street lights. The stars seem to stand out more. Pigeon Mountain is on a bit of a peninsula, so there’s pretty much constant sea winds. I wander up there in my jacket on a warm-ish night, and the wind fills my ears. I look up, and the night sky fills my vision.
That infinite vacuum wheeling above my head… It grips hold of the edges of my consciousness, expands it out past my skull and up into the sky. Through the back of my skull, all the fascinating things I’ve learned about cosmology whirl behind my eyes, and in a few short instants I’ve gone off, racing across the universe, watching as stars birth, coalesce, burn, and then nova before my eyes. I think about the majestic interplay of all that energy in all its forms… all the light moving about in all directions, not just the directions I’m looking from, a sea of electromagnetic ripples overlapping one another in all ways and passing through a three-dimensional ocean.
It’s all just in my head, of course. But even without knowledge of what they are, just looking up to watch the stars can pull at the mind. My sense of self expands out, and it feels like it’s encompassing everything.
At this point, the wind has been stealing away all the warmth I built up walking up the hill. The chill sits in, and I’m suddenly aware that the universe, whilst beautiful and majestic, is nonetheless cold. Not cruel, exactly. Just impersonal. Indifferent. Moving, but unmoved by softness or warmth.
At that point, I cast my eyes down. I usually see a car going along the main road I follow on the way home. Looking down, that car could easily be me, driving along, my mind wrapped up snug in its little bubble of warm human foolishness. From the cold and alien place my mind is currently occupying, that little sliver of warmth seems so precious. Not only does it give the universe a little sliver of the warmth it lacks, but it is also precious because it is so fragile.
And it occurs to me that, whenever I’m driving, there will always exist some perspective of my car similar to the one I am taking now, atop this hill – even if it is just the perspective from the empty air above me. That preciousness will always be there, even when I’m not aware of it, and I can always let my mind expand out to take the long view so I can remind myself about it, should I need to.
Then I look about at the houses. Pigeon Mountain rises up above a comfortably middle-class suburban area. Each house is a little light, each light is a little bubble where a group of people have carved out a little life for themselves where their bubbles overlap, and become bigger and stronger. Each home is a tiny little bubble in a sea of bubbles – a frothing foam of warmth and softness and light, laughter and sorrows and life.
It’s all so precious, because it is so rare. And because it didn’t have to be. The universe dancing above my head stands as a mute sentinel over the fact that our world never had to be this way. The universe doesn’t care. It isn’t malevolent, just indifferent. It has nothing to care with.
The only things I know about in this universe that are capable of caring are human beings, with all our foibles and quirks and weaknesses. We are transient on the scale of the universe. In the eyes of the stars we exist but for a flicker. The universe has no purpose for us. How could it? The universe isn’t the kind of thing that can impose a purpose! It has nothing to have a purpose with. Just matter and motion, nothing more.
But from that matter and motion has come something very special – totally unexpected, totally unplanned, and perhaps unique. From the purposeless dust of the universe has come the means for imposing purpose on the universe. This is something that may never be replicated again. It is so precious. It is so fragile. It is so fleeting. And it matters so very, very much.
And it is here that I find myself overcome with the… silliness of most religious thought. It is the aim of religion to tell us that we humans matter because we live forever. It’s as if the present moment – the only thing that is ever really real – is meaningless to the religious mind. So in despair, it turns away from the present and towards the eternity of the stars – but there it turns away in horror at the cold indifference it finds in the depths of the void. So the religious mind pretends that the universe has it’s own bubble of warmth and life and personality, it’s own reassuring cocoon of personality and purpose. And the religious mind calls this fantasy-bubble ‘God’. But it is not real. It is a comforting illusion only. The real warmth – the warmth that really matters – comes from the living, not from our fairy-tales.
Where such a mind goes wrong is at the very beginning. The transient and impermanent moment isn’t meaningless. Nothing lasts, but it matters while it does. And it matters because it matters to us, because we are. Purpose isn’t something that is granted to us mortals by eternity. No. It’s the other way around. It is eternity that is granted a meaning by us, the transient and fragile mortal minds that breath life, lust and love into a cold and impersonal universe.
And the entire basis of religious thought just seems so… silly is the only word that fits. There are more sophisticated arguments against the existence of God than this – clever devices of rhetoric, complex philosophy, simple observation, the fruits of critical thinking, and so forth. But it all pales in comparison when you can grasp how deeply and profoundly silly the entire root of religious thought really is.
And that’s the emotional impact of my atheism. I can feel in my bones how silly and human the myth of God really is. It’s so… limiting. It makes our brief, special, vibrant lives into nothing more than an entrance examination for an eternity that will never come, and wouldn’t matter if it did. What matters is here and now. Tomorrow will only matter when it becomes the new here and now – it is the hereness and the nowness that gives a moment it’s meaning, not it’s place within eternity. It is kairos that grants meaning, not chronos.
Religion denies the only thing we have that really matters in favor of a myth that wouldn’t matter even if it was real. It’s just so silly. And so very, very tragic.
November 13, 2008 at 3:26 pm |
James,
Jesus Christ is a historically proven fact. He really lived. Non-fiction. With all your learning, you should at least know that. Oh, and Christians aren’t the only ones who acknowlede His life. We just acknowledge He was/is the Son of God.
Just because a person says they are a Christian doesn’t mean they really are. You know this. I could claim to be Russian, but I am not. You claimed that you were once a Christian. You may have called yourself one, but if you ever were born again, you cannot be unborn. Otherwise you were never really saved.
Notice the wording. There is a difference in a religion and a relationship. Lots of people have religion; few have a relationship with God.
Again, faith in Jesus, not knowledge will get you to Heaven.
Jesus loves you! He wants you to love Him back! I want you to have what I have, not because I’m imperialistic or something like that, I just don’t want you to go to Hell.
November 13, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
Che,
Thanks for reading my blog and taking the time to reply. I don’t have time to read yours right now, but I’ll get back to it later today or tomorrow.
November 13, 2008 at 4:08 pm |
James stands to applaud Ubiquitous Che.
Nevigrof, you asked a question and I answered it. I do not love nor need the love of imaginary figures.
But if you would like to continue the off track discussion …
Jesus is not a proven fact – at least the character presented in the New Testament has not been proven. There is one independent reference to the supposedly historical figure 160 years after the events. There is no corroberation outside of the NT (written a hundred years later) of any of the described miracles. At a time when the Romans were writing about all sorts of occurrences, there is no other record of someone who people at the time claimed was the new King of the Israelites – this would have been noted by someone, even if it wasn’t true.
You continue to persist in labelling “true” and “non true” Christians. I am not claiming I was ever a (nonexistent) “true” Christian, but I gave myself, my lfe, my “soul” to Jesus. He was the first thing I thought of when waking up in the morning and the last thing before I slept at night. I prayed often; to help the sick and poor, for the future of mankind and for my departed family. By the time I was old enough to make a decision to be born again (16), I already had started forming doubts about the existence of god. It was by the age of 17 that I stopped attending church but it would take another 4 years before I would call myself an atheist.
That is very noble of you. Rest assured that neither of us is going to hell.
November 13, 2008 at 4:36 pm |
[...] would want to be a soulless atheist meat-machine? I was taking part in a discussion where a Christian asked for Atheists to respond to a simple question; “Why is it so hard for [...]
November 13, 2008 at 11:45 pm |
This is, perhaps, a poorly-worded questions since answering why it is hard to love Jesus implies that one is trying.
Still, there was a time when I tried and found it hard. After 21 years of being a Christian, my better judgment finally caught up with me when I was going through a particularly difficult time. It occurred to me that God only seemed real when I had the emotional energy to believe in him (or when someone else provided the inspiration). I felt abandoned in my need.
When I admitted to myself that I at least was no longer sure of God’s existence, I finally allowed myself to examine my life without the pressure to be faithful. I had many emotional experiences that made me feel as though God were there. I had many arguments for how to reconcile the real with with my belief in God. But really, I had no actual experiences of a god and my arguments were stretches in logic and honesty that I could only give credibility because I had already assumed that Christianity had to be true.
We are creatures that search for patterns and meanings, but there are much simpler explanations for what believers hold onto:
It is as if no one is actually answering prayer.
It is as if the many churches in the world do not have a single entity teaching and guiding them.
It is as if no one with any super-human power is terribly concerned with the pain and suffering in the world.
It is as if no one with any super-human power is terribly concerned with interacting with us at all.
Think about this: Why would an all-powerful benevolent god keep from communicating directly with us when he has made it so that our fate hangs on our correctly believing who he is?
Perhaps this god is just a terrible communicator.
In short – I once found it hard to love Jesus because he seemed not to be there. I now no longer try because the existence of a god – and most certainly the Christian god – seems very unlikely.
November 14, 2008 at 12:33 am |
Wow; James hit the logic and UC handled the emotional part. Good job, both of you. You meet my approval
For me, I have no more love for “Jesus Christ” than I do for any other historical or mythical figure. If Jesus existed as an individual, and was not just some mixture of real people and legends, he was simply a man like any other. He may have been wiser than some (though not as wise as many others), but in the end simply another man. I don’t hate that Jesus, but I don’t love him anymore than I love Newton, Bacon, Shakespeare, or Darwin.
Nevi, you say that James was not a True Christian(TM), but I find that kind of pronouncement to be very smug. You have no idea what he thought or felt. It is true, though, that James never experienced Jesus’ love, just as you have not. James (if we can take him at his word) at one time believed he experienced Jesus’ love, just as you believe it. He was wrong then, just as you are wrong now; the only difference is he realizes that he was deluding himself.
November 14, 2008 at 12:39 am |
Bows to James.
Nevi:
No problems. I didn’t sit down to write a huge wall of text. I just put fingers to keys and it all just… happened. I’m really pleased with how that reply came out – as James has already noticed, I copied it over to my blog as a fresh post.
Thanks for prompting it! Wouldn’t have written that if I hadn’t been replying to yourself.
November 14, 2008 at 3:32 am |
You ask…
It’s simple really. Because he’s a myth. He is no more real than any of thousands of other myths mankind has believed in over the eons no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.
November 14, 2008 at 4:41 am |
Some others in the comments have done a good job of answering your question from an atheist viewpoint, but somehow I doubt that you really want to be enlightened. Your bald assertions that evolution is false, Jesus is a proven historical figure etc. make it clear that your mind is closed and you don’t really care what atheists say in response to your questions.
November 14, 2008 at 6:25 am |
Nevi, here is the problem that you don’t seem to understand: even if they believe Jesus was an actual person who lived a few thousand years ago (and there is reasons to doubt this), atheists don’t believe he was the Son Of God. To an atheist, there is no God to be a son of.
You may call your religion a “relationship” with Jesus, but is no different to an atheist than a Hindu who claims to “commune” with Brahma, or a Wiccan that “speaks” with the forest spirits. I don’t know if you realize this, but MANY (if not most) religions claim that the spirit(s) they worship “save”, “comfort”, or “protect” them. Religious claims pretty much all look the same to most atheists.
If Jesus had existed, he was probably a rabbi that might have had some interesting teachings, but some people built up a whole mythology around him, and crafted a history and miracles to make it appear that he fulfilled “prophecies” that would have made him the Jewish messiah. Granted, at least a handful of what is claimed to have been taught by him are good teachings. But the Resurrection? Not true. The miracles? Never happened. Just like the resurrections and miracles described by every other religion that has ever existed are false.
As an atheist, it’s not that I could never “love” Jesus, it’s just that the Jesus of the bible is an obvious myth, and should be treated as such.
November 14, 2008 at 6:57 am |
Wow Ubiquitous Che, that is incredible. Great work. I would like to add one sentiment.
I was at the wedding of a great friend of mine a few years ago. He is a born-again christian and very active in his church. He met his wife there and got married a year later. Both families do not have much money, so they prayed for help to have the wedding they wanted.
They got lucky. Various family and church friends have them money and others gave their time to perform some of the duties one would ordinarily have to pay someone for. It was an amazing wedding, certainly one of the more emotional ones I have been to.
However, what got to me was how everyone was going on about how “the grace of God” made the wedding possible. I sat there thinking: “What about all the people that helped you? Was it not through their grace that the wedding was possible?” I felt that it cheapened the sacrifice that they had made, not that they expected anything in return (and they did get thanked for their help).
This is one problem I have with religions. The goodness of people is overlooked somewhat. Sure, some may argue that religions make people good and charitable, but I don’t think this is necessarily so. Good people will help their friends (and sometimes strangers) when they can. In the example of the wedding, did the people give their time/money because they were good people, or was it because God forced them to do so?
I like to find the warmth and love I require in my family and friends. The thought of requiring it from an imaginary (to me) entity does seem silly.
November 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm |
Che,
Sorry I am soooo late getting back to you…been a little more busy than usual.
If were to write a book, I’d probably read it. You have a beautiful mastery over words. I enjoyed reading what you wrote; very nice!
I agree…to an extent. The same sort of sensations you described when reaching the top of the peak happen to me at the beach…I live close to the gulf coast. Such a large expanse of ocean….so many grains of sand…so many stars….so beautiful.
Yet, Jesus counted us as humans…fairly insignificant when we are taken at face value…lovely enough in His eyes to die in the place of. He loves us THAT much…He loves you that much…and you don’t even love Him back! That’s pretty amazing.
November 14, 2008 at 1:58 pm |
James,
If you think your conversion was real, do you think you were unborn again?
November 14, 2008 at 2:05 pm |
Typo,
Thanks for taking the time to read and post a reply to my blog! I really appreciate hearing your heart. Some have just replied angry, but you seem genuine and honest to yourself. I admire that.
Its none of my business what the “difficult time” was. And, I am sorry you had to experience anything that could be remotely classified as “difficult”. Christians aren’t immune to that kind of thing either.
And, just because we go through such pain, whatever form it takes, there is no need for us to doubt God. We just trust Him more. Pain, it seems from experience, drew me closer to God.
Typo, I get to speak to a lot of churches and youth groups. With your permission, can I use some of the things you said sometime during a message? You know, just to give Christians an atheistic perspective. Where I live, not many people have that. If you don’t want that, I understand.
November 14, 2008 at 2:12 pm |
Rob,
Thank you, too, for reading and replying to my blog.
Actually, the Bible teaches that once somebody truly becomes a Christian, they will remain one from then on. I believe this to be true. If James was ever in his life truly a born again Christian, he still is now, and is just confused. If now he is truly an atheist, he was never a Christian.
Also, I know exactly what has happend to me. I know the love of God. Jesus has saved me and supernaturally changed my life.
Contrary to a lot of stereotypes about Christians, I am not on here to press my beliefs on anyone. Not at all.
I am here because Jesus loves me, I love Him, and because He has given me sooooo much love, joy, peace…I want all of you to experience Him too.
And, I really, REALLY don’t want you to go to Hell.
Know this: whether you believe it or not, Jesus loves you, died in you place, was Ressurrected, and is now pleading with your heart for you to accept His forgiveness and grace.
November 14, 2008 at 2:15 pm |
Che,
I agree. It was a fantasticly written post…especially from someone who believes his species evolved from a mud like substance.
God gave you your brain. He gave it to you to use for His glory. Give it to Him, give your life to Him, and watch what He can do with you!
The thought of it gets me excited!
November 14, 2008 at 2:17 pm |
Les,
Thanks for reading and replying!
Myth?
This is a common belief that has been widely disproven. He is a proven fact of history. Rarely any (if any) religion does not believe He existed. He is historically proven.
Why not love Him?
He loves you. He died in your place! He’s begging you right now to let Him forgive your sins and save you!
November 14, 2008 at 2:19 pm |
Nice Guy,
Thanks for reading and replying.
Man, its really a genuine, honest question. Why not love Jesus?
What’s your answer/story. Why can’t you love Jesus?
November 14, 2008 at 2:26 pm |
Sinned,
Thanks to you too for reading and replying.
If atheists feel that way equally about every religion, then why are they seemingly pooring much more energy into the fight against Christianity?
This is what it seems like to me.
Its almost like Jesus is the only One that is legit…and deep down, they know it.
You’re guilty of ignoring historical fact. Jesus really lived. He really did miracles. He really was Resurrected. If He wasn’t resurrected, where is His body/bones? Wouldn’t logic assume that someone as dynamic as He would have been honored after death? Someone who literally shook the course of the world. Wouldn’t it only make sense that, since He prophesied that He would be resurrected after death….and that was a big deal in itself….that skeptics would have kept up with His body/bones later to prove that He was a liar?
November 14, 2008 at 2:33 pm |
Bullit,
Thanks for reading and replying.
I just got married myself, 5 months ago today actually-happy anniversary wife, and I really appreciated your mention of a wedding. I had a great time at mine, and I love my wife dearly.
“In the example of the wedding, did the people give their time/money because they were good people, or was it because God forced them to do so?”
Fantastic question! You atheist guys and ladies are wonderful questioners!
I will answer you from personal experience.
When I do good to people, such as something like what you mentioned, I do it because I want to, not because I have to. You see, God has changed my life! He has given me love, joy, peace, eternal life….much much more than I could ever deserve, I have been given for free….all because I repented and believed in Him!
I like to give to others because I’ve been given so much! I love others because He loves me so much!
It’s not because we have to, its because we want to. We love to help others because of everything God has done for us!
November 14, 2008 at 2:35 pm |
Bullit (continued),
And yes, God stills recieves the glory. Because without the work of His grace in our lives, we wouldn’t want to give! He gets the glory! He’s provided us with means of giving…some more than others and in different ways than others.
To God be the Glory!
November 14, 2008 at 4:41 pm |
nevigrof wrote:
Just in case that was about me; perhaps I should put more of these in my posts so that nobody misconstrues my mood: ”
“. This is a level-headed debate, I have at no point intended to sound angry or short.
nevigrof wrote:
I didn’t claim that I was born-again in the first place (in the traditions of the church that I attended, it was a physical act of being re-baptised that indicated to the whole congregation that you were born-again – I did not do the ritual so I never considered myself born-again). I was just expressing the relationship that I believed that I had at the time when I was a Christian, this was to provide an example that there really is no definition of a “true Christian”, everyone has a personal relationship with their god and every one of those relationships is different from the relationship that you have with your god.
That is a false dichotomy and reveals the real blak-and-white distinction that you make between “true Christians” and everone else. It is understandable that this dichotomy gives you your poor understanding of atheism (they are all either “lost sheep” or “never a Christian”).
sigh. ;P
From your repeated assertions at the end of every one of your replies it appears that you have taken no interest in listening to any of us and appear to be trying to convert people. Your contradiction is revealed:
Prem A – Jesus is the only way to heaven – John 3:16
Prem B – If you don’t go to heaven you are going to hell.
Prem C – “It would be a shame for you to go to Hell [because you disagree with me / misuse brains]“.
Prem D – “I am not on here to press my beliefs on anyone.”
Conclusion: From prems A, B and C – you are going to hell because you disagree with me
Contradiction detected: Conclusion and Prem D.
For that reason, I am not interested in continuing with this farse of a debate. Chalk-up a “win” if you feel like it but I don’t think that anyone independent of this discussion could see it that way – perhaps a disinterested stalemate might define it better.
So I’ll read your comments one more time before I leave and if I am disabused of my “lost sheep”-ish-ness, I will post again about the glory of god. I wouldn’t hold my breath. It is more likely that I will have one last facepalm moment and then return to my evil life.
November 14, 2008 at 5:01 pm |
Typical nattering on about the love of a fairy tale.
November 14, 2008 at 5:29 pm |
Christians have done a great deal to promote atheism by presenting a half good, half bogus idea of religion. 1. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. 2. Meat eaters cannot know God. 3. Religious philosophy that lacks understanding of karma and reincarnation causes offense against God by making Him seem cruel and unfair. 4. God never becomes man, never suffers, never dies, is not limited to one son or limited in any way, and can immediately save everyone simply by his desire, no need for any crucifixion or whatever. The Chistian idea of God is vague, limited, mundane, and weak. You don’t know God until you know Krishna, and when you know Krishna you know everything.
November 14, 2008 at 6:36 pm |
James,
You have been a great participant in this conversation, and I hate to lose touch with you, but if thats what you want, its your decision.
Also, I feel the need to address “C”and “D”.
C- A person can disagree with me all they want. Lots of people do. That’s not what sends people to Hell at all. People go to Hell because they are unforgiven sinners who deserve it. They have rejected Jesus Christ. Nobody will be in Hell simply because they disagree with me, and its not my goal at all to send people there. Quite the contrary actually. I want people to be saved from it.
D- Feel free to believe differently than me. I think it would be unfair, however, for a whole bunch of athiest to state to me their beliefs and me not be able to state mine. So, I freely state mine, the same way you do. You are not forcing yours on me; I’m not forcing mine on you. Its your God-given right to believe what you want, and I’m not going to take that away from you.
Also, no win was chalked up for me. I’m not in this to win arguments. I’m not that kind of Christian…that’s why I stricly said I was not interested in creation vs. evolution debates…at least not right now.
You are free to come back…or not…your choice. You are free to accept Jesus…or not…your choice.
November 14, 2008 at 6:40 pm |
Pandu,
Thanks for reading and replying. Haven’t heard this argument, yet, and it was indeed an interesting one. Thanks for bringing it to the table.
I eat meat, and know God. I have no idea who Krishna is, but know God. My God loves me so He became like me (a man), suffered like me and far, immeasurably worse, died the death I owed, and was Resurrected making a Way for me and you to have life in Him.
Trust Krishna if you like, but I’ll trust the One who gave His life for me and has given me life.
What’s your answer to the question? Why can’t you love Jesus?
November 14, 2008 at 6:41 pm |
Pandu,
Also, we must not have the same god. Mine is nothing like what you described. Unless yours is Jesus, we serve different ones.
November 14, 2008 at 6:43 pm |
House,
Thanks for reading and replying.
Jesus is a proven historical fact. Not a fairy tale. Peter Pan never loved me. Peter Pan never died in my place. Peter Pan didn’t save me. I didn’t talk to Peter Pan this morning.
November 14, 2008 at 10:30 pm |
To James:
Your comment to nevigrof: “That’s an appeal to personal incredulity. Just because you cannot imagine it, you are saying that it is therefore false. It is a form of fallacious thinking.” That is an empty accusation. He was not saying that because he cannot imagine it, it is false. He was simply stessing the idea that as a Christian it is completely out of his mindset to ignore the existence of God. Now, if he were to have said that as a human being it is literally impossible to imagine the nonexistence of God then you should be objective because then he would be including you. I’m pretty sure his point in that is that his very personal and intimate relationship with God leaves him no desire to embrace the idea that God does not exist. Also, either you are unaware or you have forgotten that Jesus was a teacher as well. Many would argue that one could learn just as much in one of Jesus’ parables than all of Sagan’s books or teachings combined. Try one sometime and don’t just read it but absorb it the same way you would in a classroom. You may just see what I’m talking about. I am sorry that you have lost your faith in God, but nevi is right–God is not a phase. Whether you claimed Him or not, it was apparently never authentic. Perhaps you have a tragic story to go along with it? Many people who no longer believe in God tend to have a tragedy that inspires their lack of faith. It’s completely understandable; however, quite crippling in the long run. If you truly persist to not believe and accept God, it is wise to be 100 percent sure with no leaks for doubt that there is no Hell as well.
November 15, 2008 at 1:11 am |
I would say I do love Jesus, but the problem is that who Jesus is has been grossly distorted. Why should God have to become flesh and blood and get slaughtered in order to save anyone? In Proverbs 6:16-17 it is stated that God hates the shedding of innocent blood. How can you love God and kill His creatures for the taste of their flesh? It should be clear that He would hate the unnecessary killing of a peaceful cow for food, and even more so would hate the killing of His “only son,” who would naturally be the embodiment of innocence. How could it be that the only means for God save the world involves that which He hates? No one fitting that description can be all-powerful.
You say you know God. Well then, can you describe His form in detail? What does He like to eat? What are His pastimes? The Bible gives a vague idea of God, but no one can love a vague idea. One must know God in detail.
God ultimately means Krishna. God has unlimited names and forms, but the original, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is Krishna, who is also known as Govinda, Madhava, and other beautiful names. He is the origin of all and has no other origin. His form is tinged with blue-black hue, like that of a storm cloud, and is of he nature of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. He wears gold-colored garments, a peacock feather, and a long garland of fresh blooming aromatic flowers surrounded by intoxicated bees. The palms of His hands and soles of His feet are reddish in color and are marked with various auspicious symbols, including a conch, flag, and lotus. The beauty of His figure puts that of Cupid to shame, and therefore He is known as Krishna, which means “all-attractive,” “full of truth and bliss,” and “blackish and very beautiful.”
Krishna has no duty to perform and is always engaged in loving pastimes with His pure devotees. Sometimes He appears as a mischievous little boy, sometimes as the lover of His paramour, sometimes as the killer of demons, and sometimes as His own devotee. His pastimes are unlimited.
There are many names and forms of God, but anyone who denies the supremacy of Krishna is simply an atheist. As He says in Bhagavad-gita 9:23 (http://vedabase.net/bg/9/en), “Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way.” If you worship someone whom you think is not Krishna, then you’re still worshiping Krishna, though not as He advises.
Go ahead and read that chapter of Bhagavad-gita, or any chapter, and see if it can be anyone other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead speaking. The fact is that none of the flaws that make the children of Christians declare themselves atheists are to be found in Krishna’s instructions. It is completely perfect, as bona fide religion should be.
November 15, 2008 at 2:44 am |
nevi: you keep asking why we can’t “love Jesus”, and we keep telling you. But you reject our answers, assert all of these “proven facts” about Jesus (none of which are proven) and repeat “why can’t you love Jesus.”
I guess you believe what the Bible tells you, and that’s all fine and well if you really, really do. But we don’t believe what the Bible says, anymore than we believe any other books of mythology. We don’t believe that Jesus was the son of god, or was resurrected. There’s simply no evidence that any of this is true. You say you’ve experienced this, but anecdotal evidence is horribly unreliable. Our minds play many tricks on us, and religion is just one of them.
I don’t know if Pandu is for real or not, but he illustrates perfectly the problem we Atheists have with your tales. You don’t buy what he’s selling, and we don’t buy what you’re selling (nor what he’s selling, btw). Ultimately, it’s for exactly the same reasons, but you don’t recognize it.
You ask why Atheists focus all of our efforts on Christianity, and that answer is also simple. here in America, Christianity is the majority, and it is Christians that try to force their beliefs on everyone else. We aren’t, in fact, focusing on Christianity; we are focusing our efforts on Christians like Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Billy Graham, etc. In the words of Ghandi “I very much like your Christ. I do not care for your Christians at all.”
But I’m with James; I don’t think you really care about our answers. You want to make a “why don’t you love Jesus after all he’s done for you” point, ignoring that we don’t believe that he did anything for us. The evidence simply isn’t there that he was anything other than a regular Joe, one whom didn’t make nearly the impact while he was alive that you claim.
But you keep making your unfounded assertions, and congratulating yourself on stumping us Atheists. You say you’re not “that kind of Christian”, but you are. Or maybe you don’t really believe any of this nonsense, but you’re too afraid to admit it to yourself.
November 15, 2008 at 7:34 am |
nevi,
it would be fine with me if you used some of my post as long as it’s quoted accurately of course.
I should clarify though that the pain I experiences is not what made me an atheist. I remained an agnostic for a while – trying to make some form of spirituality work. What my experience did, was break the emotional block that was keeping me from acknowledging my doubts. Once that emotional block was gone, it was only a matter of time before evidence, reason, and experience took over.
I can relate to your faith – I know what it’s like to feel that way, but I can’t explain it. Your advice to “just trust god more” doesn’t make sense. Why not just trust Vishnu more? Why not work out more? I mean, the obvious reaction when faced with a belief that doesn’t seem to hold water, is to stop trusting it.
November 15, 2008 at 9:32 am |
I agree with what all the other atheists have said with regard to your question about why we can’t love Jesus. James has said everything I would have said, just better and Ubiquitous Che did it with poetic flair – UC, you captured the the thoughts that go through my mind everytime I look through a telescope.
Like James I was also a christian when I was younger. What turned me away was the fact that no one could answer the inconsistencies I found in the bible, because I asked so many questions I was told that I didn’t have enough faith – an easy cop put for those who didn’t have the answers and the same one you are using.
I don’t need to believe or have faith in a mythical being to see the wonder of the planet I live on; or to be amazed at how lucky we are to exist at all; or to stare in awe at the incredible beauty of the universe. As I see it, instead of wasting my time on securing a place in a non existant afterlife, I’d rather use the time I have here and now to strive towards keeping this planet I call home a safe and beautiful place for my children and grandchildren to enjoy – I cannot rely on prayer and the benevolence of a whimsical being to do that for me, that’s just another cop out as far as I’m concerned.
After reading your other posts it looks like not only are you trying to convince your readers to “Love Jesus and Jesus will Love you” ; but it seems as if you’re trying very hard to convince yourself of the same thing too.
November 16, 2008 at 10:37 am |
Hello Nevi,
If atheists feel that way equally about every religion, then why are they seemingly pooring much more energy into the fight against Christianity?
In North America (and most the West), Christianity is the dominant religion, therefore most atheists spend more time dealing with the various sects of Christianity than other religions. If I were living in a country where Islam was the majority religion, I’m sure I’d spend more time “fighting” Islam.
Its almost like Jesus is the only One that is legit…and deep down, they know it.
Have you ever heard of the term “confirmation bias”?
You’re guilty of ignoring historical fact. Jesus really lived. He really did miracles.
So you say. Please locate for me a SINGLE article written from the actual time that Jesus lived. You ARE aware that the gospels were written between 40-70 years AFTER Jesus’ supposed death and resurrection, right?
He really was Resurrected.
Are you sure? All we have to go by are second-hand accounts by unknown authors, written decades after the supposed events. That doesn’t strike me as very reliable.
If He wasn’t resurrected, where is His body/bones?
Socrates had a great effect on Western Culture, and we’ve little doubt that he existed. However, since we can’t find his body or bones, he must have never lived. If that argument doesn’t strike you as ridiculous, you’re not paying attention.
Wouldn’t logic assume that someone as dynamic as He would have been honored after death? Someone who literally shook the course of the world.
No, logic wouldn’t assume that at all. If we agree that Jesus was an actual person (which I highly doubt), he had only a small following at the time of his death. It is entirely reasonable to assume that his followers could have stolen his body and hid it, with few people caring at all. Decades later, the mythology we are familiar with today was formed, and religions based on those myths became successful. Not because the myth was true, but because it was spread by politics and the sword. The Roman gods were all fake, I’m certain you would agree, but that did not prevent them from reshaping the course of the world, either.
Wouldn’t it only make sense that, since He prophesied that He would be resurrected after death….and that was a big deal in itself….that skeptics would have kept up with His body/bones later to prove that He was a liar?
Not really, because at that time, very few people cared about yet another man with a tiny following of people claiming to be the Jewish messiah. If Jesus was so amazingly mind-blowing, how come the only documents written about him didn’t appear until decades after he died? Outside of the gospels (and remember that we don’t even know who wrote any of them), why is there not a single contemporary account of Jesus?
The most likely explanation: Jesus never existed. If he was a real person, he performed no real miracles and he certainly wasn’t resurrected. The tales about him were created later, and he was made to look like the Jewish messiah by creative writing.
November 17, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
ChuckFan,
Thanks for reading and commenting on my blog!
Thanks also for helping clarify some things. Hope to hear some more from you.
Could the “Chuck” be referring to Chuck Norris?
November 17, 2008 at 2:54 pm |
Pandu,
What religion are you involved with? I appreciate the further explanation about Krishna.
For God to save us, He had to become one of us.
“…and without the shedding of blood is no remission.” Hebrews 9:22
I’m sure Jesus would have preferred another way(as evidenced in His prayer in the Garden pre-crucifixion); however, God’s will would not allow.
Check out Hebrews 9:11-28.
Its the ultimate love story. There was no possible way for us to be good enough or do enough good things for us to be righteous by God’s standard. We can never be good enough to merit Heaven. Besides, because we are sinners (Rom. 3:23), we deserve Hell as a punishment for our sins (Rom. 6:23). God would rather die than live without us. So, that’s exactly what He did. He took on our form, human. He lived a perfect, sinless life-one we couldn’t live. Kept the law perfectly. Died the perfect death. Took our place in death-suffering our punishment that our sin required of us. And, was resurrected into perfect life.
Pandu, God loves us so much, He chose to become one of us…as insignificant as we are…so He could fittingly die in our place, paying the debt we owed to God, and making a way for us to be forgiven and live forever with Him.
November 17, 2008 at 2:59 pm |
Rob Miles,
I believe Jesus. With all my heart. If I didn’t, I promise you this, there is simply no way I would spend my time talking to people who can’t even understand where I’m coming from becaue they can’t seem to fathom the existence of God.
“We don’t believe that Jesus was the son of god, or was resurrected. There’s simply no evidence that any of this is true.”
Where is His body? His bones?
Rob, I don’t even know you…to my knowledge…but I care about you. I love you because God loves me. I’m keep talking to you because I want you to know Jesus the way I do, and I don’t want you to go to Hell.
November 17, 2008 at 3:06 pm |
Typo,
Thanks for the permission. And, if I ever do use something you said, I will make sure to read it in hopes to eliminate false quotation.
It truly saddens me that you lost your faith, or whatever you would like to call it. My faith in Jesus is what I cling to. I honestly can not say what I would do it He were not in my life.
I don’t know what happened to you, but I promise you this: God never stopped loving you. He never stopped watching you. He knows where you are at right now, and where you were then. He wants you to either come back to Him, or come to Him for the first real time.
I know that sounds real preacher-like, but its the truth and I would stake my life on it. In fact, I have. My whole eternity.
November 17, 2008 at 3:14 pm |
Skeptic sheep,
Thanks for reading and replying.
Nice rhyme scheme at the bottom, too. I’m pretty sure that was unintentional, but cool nonetheless.
I realize I probably sound like a broken record repeating a lot of the same things over and over again, but honestly, I could say the same thing about you guys/girls. I have heard over and over again, “no evidence”, “ignoring reality”, “was a Christian”, “evolution”, “doesn’t make sense”…and stuff like that. And, after a while, it seems like you guys are really trying hard to keep yourselves convinced in a lie.
The difference is, I’m clinging to the Truth. Not trying to keep convincing myself.
Christians don’t hate the universe, nature, or the natural beauty in both. In fact one of my best friends is a Christian who avidly studies astronomy. We appreciate for other reasons entirely, however. We see the magnificence and say, “What a Great Creator!”
November 17, 2008 at 3:15 pm |
Pandu,
Also, if I could explain and fully understand God, He wouldn’t be God. Knowing Him is not the same as understanding Him.
November 17, 2008 at 3:25 pm |
Sinned,
“In North America (and most the West), Christianity is the dominant religion, therefore most atheists spend more time dealing with the various sects of Christianity than other religions. If I were living in a country where Islam was the majority religion, I’m sure I’d spend more time “fighting” Islam.”
I’ll definitely agree. And, I’m also thankful that you don’t live in an Islamic country because you’d probably be dead. They’re not too friendly with anyone except other Muslims.
“Socrates had a great effect on Western Culture, and we’ve little doubt that he existed. However, since we can’t find his body or bones, he must have never lived. If that argument doesn’t strike you as ridiculous, you’re not paying attention.”
Did Socrates predict his death and resurrection? The point is if He didn’t realy come back from the dead and ascend to Heaven, why not keep His bones as a testament to His lie?
“Not really, because at that time, very few people cared about yet another man with a tiny following of people claiming to be the Jewish messiah. ”
They cared enough put Him to death. Stirred up Jews enough to request crucifixion. Stirred up the Romans enough to carry out the request. Tiny? Millions are still following Him today.
Jesus loves you more than you know. You are a great debator (by the way, I appreciate the non-violent tone in your responses). God gave you that ability, and you can’t even acknowledge Him. Remarkable!
November 17, 2008 at 10:36 pm |
Dear Rob, typo180 & everyone else out there who rely on proof,
Truth is, when it all comes down to it, perhaps Christians’ faith cannot be proven. At least in your terms. But to Christians the proof lies in the Word. Meanwhile, you say “Well why His Word and not Buddha’s or Vishnu’s? Well, the difference is that their words were just that, words. The Word of God is more than talk. It is actually a being, better known as Jesus.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God….” John 1:1
While all these other men or “gods” may preach elements that are very similar to Christianity which may seem to instantly thrust God into the melting pot with them, they still preach mere words as opposed to the Word–Jesus who became flesh, like you and I minus the sin, and sacrificed himself, experiencing every ounce of pain just as we would if it had been us. Oftentimes we say that no one can really understand us (or whatever circumstance we’re in) unless they’ve been there. Well folks he’s been there. It is us who cannot relate to him. Yet, he chose to relate to us and become us, to save us from ourselves.
In the dictionary, the word “faith” is defined as a belief that is not based on proof. Ah, there’s that word again. Proof. I hear you all throw that around so freely and defensively along with words like reason and evidence. In case you haven’t noticed these are all the opposite of faith. And I think that’s what makes faith so special and God so unique. He can’t be proven whereas all these other PEOPLE can be. That makes them the same as you and I with a few extra good deeds and head nods under their belts. Jesus was not initially like you and I. He became like us (human) to save us from the sin that we could not save ourselves from. He became that because of love and Christians believe that out of faith which you and no hardcore scholar can prove.
Perhaps we wrap ourselves up in so much proving and reasoning that we miss what it’s all about. The faith of it all. So I ask, what’s wrong in having faith in this God who shows love not only His speech but in His Word? What’s wrong in just abandoning the facts that we fight so hard to obtain and accept Him through an act of faith? Maybe if we put all the energy that we use in searching, arguing, and proving into embracing just a little faith then maybe that’s when we’ll get our answers.
November 17, 2008 at 11:53 pm |
Oh and nevi, to answer your question, yes, I am a Chuck Norris fan. I especially love the one where Chuck Norris doesn’t skydive out of airplanes. Airplanes skydive out of Chuck Norris! *winks*
November 18, 2008 at 6:44 am |
I’ll definitely agree. And, I’m also thankful that you don’t live in an Islamic country because you’d probably be dead. They’re not too friendly with anyone except other Muslims.
I agree. Secularization (thanks to the Humanistic Enlightenment) took a lot of the barbarism out of Christianity, and the West has definitely been better off because of it. Sadly, some other religions have yet to secularize enough to recognize the importance of freedom of (and from) religion.
Did Socrates predict his death and resurrection?
I was trying to draw an analogy that obviously went completely over your head. Either that or you can’t address the point I was trying to make and are merely attempting to change the subject to who prophesied what.
The point is if He didn’t realy come back from the dead and ascend to Heaven, why not keep His bones as a testament to His lie?
Because nobody CARED. Over the past three thousand years, how many people do you think have claimed divinity, or at least that they would die and be resurrected again? Probably quite a few. And how many of those people do we have the bodies of NOW to prove that they didn’t get resurrected? Pretty much NONE.
Again, if Jesus existed (and I doubt he did), how come nobody seemed to bother to write anything about him until DECADES after his supposed death and resurrection? Besides, YOU are the one who claims Jesus isn’t dead, so why don’t you show me his undead body instead of requesting I find you his dusty old bones?
They cared enough put Him to death. Stirred up Jews enough to request crucifixion. Stirred up the Romans enough to carry out the request.
Funny thing about that: we have NO records about this supposed amazing man who performed impossible acts, had thousands of followers, and stirred up such political unrest, except for obvious fables written decades after it all happened. The Romans kept good records, and it would be reasonable to think that an incredibly important person like Jesus would have made it into their writings SOMEWHERE. Instead, there isn’t any 3rd party writings on Jesus written until way after his death.
Most likely, the events of Jesus’ life as written in the gospels never happened. They were made up from a cult of personality decades after he supposedly lived and died.
Tiny? Millions are still following Him today.
I never said that he only had a small amount of followers now, I stated that at the time of his supposed death, he didn’t have many followers. Frankly, I believe he had zero followers because I don’t think he was ever a real person.
Jesus loves you more than you know. You are a great debator (by the way, I appreciate the non-violent tone in your responses).
Thanks for the compliment. As for non-violence, we’re just having a discussion. There’s little reason to get angry or violent.
God gave you that ability, and you can’t even acknowledge Him. Remarkable!
Gave me the ability to debate? Doubtful! I am actually a very shy person who is afraid of conflict, and it has taken years of practice and study to learn how to debate. God had nothing to do with it. I mainly blame my grandfather for being an opinionated jerk, and for teaching me to be the same!
Chuckfan said: So I ask, what’s wrong in having faith in this God who shows love not only His speech but in His Word?
You must be reading a different bible than me. When I read it, I don’t see a lot of love. I see a LOT of smiting, and taking slaves, and killing people of other religions. Towards the back of the book, there’s one fella who finally says a few good things, but it really doesn’t make up for all the evil perpetuated by his dad earlier in the novel.
ChuckFan said: What’s wrong in just abandoning the facts that we fight so hard to obtain and accept Him through an act of faith? Maybe if we put all the energy that we use in searching, arguing, and proving into embracing just a little faith then maybe that’s when we’ll get our answers.
Those exact steps that you listed are why the thousands of religions on this planet (including Christianity) exist. People just accept what they are told and don’t bother to research it or expect any proof. What’s wrong with abandoning facts? Stupid and evil things can happen when people replace facts and evidence for “faith”.
November 18, 2008 at 3:14 pm |
ChuckFan,
Well written response and fantastic points. Oftentimes we do lose sight that as Ephesians says, its all about faith in God.
As I’ve said before: If we would understand and explain Him, He wouldn’t be God.
Thanks for the backup!
Oh and, I have a poster of Chuck Norris facts a friend gave me.
November 18, 2008 at 3:25 pm |
Sinned,
“Because nobody CARED. Over the past three thousand years, how many people do you think have claimed divinity, or at least that they would die and be resurrected again? Probably quite a few. And how many of those people do we have the bodies of NOW to prove that they didn’t get resurrected? Pretty much NONE.”
Yes, but, no books, Bibles, entire lives, enire populations have completely poured their entire lives and staked their entire eternity on any of those other guys. Their impact should not even be put in the same sentence as Jesus’s.
“Besides, YOU are the one who claims Jesus isn’t dead, so why don’t you show me his undead body instead of requesting I find you his dusty old bones?”
He ascended into Heaven shortly after His Resurrection. He’s also coming back soon, very soon. You probably just rolled your eyes.
“Funny thing about that: we have NO records about this supposed amazing man who performed impossible acts, had thousands of followers, and stirred up such political unrest, except for obvious fables written decades after it all happened. The Romans kept good records, and it would be reasonable to think that an incredibly important person like Jesus would have made it into their writings SOMEWHERE. Instead, there isn’t any 3rd party writings on Jesus written until way after his death.”
Josephus? Besides, as stated before, few if any religions deny the existence of Jesus. We Christians believe He was the Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, that He died, was buried and resurrected in the world’s place, that He loves people that can’t see the Truth because they are blinded with lies…like you.
“I never said that he only had a small amount of followers now, I stated that at the time of his supposed death, he didn’t have many followers. Frankly, I believe he had zero followers because I don’t think he was ever a real person.”
Then, why die for a fable? Why be persecuted for a lie? Why be martyered for a fictional character? Check out Fox’s Book of Martyrs and Jesus Freaks. Millions have died for a fairy tale? Doesn’t make sense at all.
“Gave me the ability to debate? Doubtful! I am actually a very shy person who is afraid of conflict, and it has taken years of practice and study to learn how to debate. God had nothing to do with it. I mainly blame my grandfather for being an opinionated jerk, and for teaching me to be the same!”
Ha, granddad’s are great! I used to be VERY shy too. God changed all that when He saved me and gave me a reason to talk…to everyone.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion so far. And, I will let Chuckfan answer for himself for now…mainly because I am out of time.
November 18, 2008 at 6:05 pm |
Sinned,
Because Jesus IS God and they are one as a part of the Trinity, Jesus’ words are God’s words. When Jesus spoke love to the people, it was as if God were saying exactly what He wanted them to hear through His Son. True, God’s wrath is quite evident in the Old Testament but, if you notice, it is all because of human wickedness. It’s just like when a child disobeys his father and the father punishes the child so that he will clearly understand the consequences of his actions and that the child and also his siblings, if any, would learn from the punishment so to not make the same mistake again. Unfortunately, few children learn from theirs’ or others’ mistakes. Those people purposely made themselves enemies of God on many different levels. God’s wrath was fierce and sometimes unrelenting, no doubt about that, but just like a father He was also very merciful to His people, or did you overlook all those cases? The ones where He delivered and blessed them, the same way He does now even without our acknowledgement.
The most well-known and recited scripture in the Bible is “For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
I am sure you are familiar with this passage as most are. Have you ever noticed the stressing of the word ‘loved’ here? It doesn’t say “For God loved the world…” it says He SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. This is a very clear example of His love for not only His people but for the entire world, and, might I add, the one you live in.
And it’s not about people simply accepting what they are told. As a matter of fact, my former teacher and mentor in the subject always taught me to NEVER take anyone’s word as absolute truth (including preachers, teachers, or elders) in terms of scripture and Biblical teaching but to ALWAYS seek the answers for myself in the scripture so that I can know for myself.
“Stupid and evil things can happen when people replace facts and evidence for “faith.” Well, my friend, just as many stupid and evil things happen when people replace God with….well, anything!
November 21, 2008 at 6:40 am |
Yes, but, no books, Bibles, entire lives, enire populations have completely poured their entire lives and staked their entire eternity on any of those other guys. Their impact should not even be put in the same sentence as Jesus’s.
Once again, you’re completely missing the point I’m making. The lack of a corpse from 2,000 years ago is extremely poor evidence that Jesus was resurrected.
And your response doesn’t make any sense at all, either! Have you never heard of Quetzecoatal? Buddha? Horus? Incredible masses of humans have written millions of words, and sacrificed themselves and “eternity” on at least THOUSANDS of other gods and messiahs, and they are all as fraudulent as Jesus was.
The only reason Christianity has become as widespread as it is was the fact that it became the major religion of the already established and powerful Roman empire, and was spread mainly by political force and the sword.
Plus you STILL haven’t addressed the reason why, if Jesus was so incredibly amazing with so many people willing to die and suffer and do ANYTHING for him, there are no writings about him until decades after his death/resurrection.
Josephus?
Heh, I had originally mentioned him in my post, but I removed it because I knew there was no way you’d be able to resist mentioning Josephus’ disputed reference to Jesus.
Even if Josephus’ writing about Jesus wasn’t fraudulent (and it probably is), it was still written well AFTER Jesus had supposedly died. Besides, the quote is still merely a reference to the fact that there was a Jesus cult at the time. It’s as useful for proving the existence of Jesus as an encyclopedia entry on the religion of the Norse proves the existence of Thor.
Besides, as stated before, few if any religions deny the existence of Jesus.
Care to cite any documentation of that “statistic”? I get the feeling you just made that up. Besides, does the fact that the Bible mentions the god Baal mean that he must have been a real god too? Doubtful!
We Christians believe He was the Son of God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, that He died, was buried and resurrected in the world’s place, that He loves people that can’t see the Truth because they are blinded with lies…like you.
Well, YOUR sect of Christianity believes that. Not all of the 3,000+ versions believe that. As for being blinded with lies, I’m not the one who believes in talking snakes, invisible sky fairies, and zombie messiahs. It all seems rather ridiculous to me.
Anyways, how about some proof for Jesus not being dead? He established precedence in the new testament for appearing to people. Perhaps we can get him to come down off his cloud and say hello? Tonight? I could buy him a beer (or wine, if he prefers)!
Then, why die for a fable? Why be persecuted for a lie? Why be martyered for a fictional character? Check out Fox’s Book of Martyrs and Jesus Freaks. Millions have died for a fairy tale? Doesn’t make sense at all.
Here’s the problem with your train of thought though: pretty much EVERY religion has people willing to die or be persecuted for their faith! Why is Tom Cruise willing to be mocked for Scientology? Why are Tibetan monks willing to suffer at the hands of the Chinese government? Why were so many Celts willing to be slaughtered instead of converting to Christianity? It speaks nothing to whether Jesus was real or not, as people have been willing to die and suffer for religion and ideals for as long as humans have existed.
God changed all that when He saved me and gave me a reason to talk…to everyone.
You sell yourself short. You are the one who has become able to overcome your shyness. God had nothing to do with it, other than providing some impetus for you to do it.
Chuckfan:
I’m quite well aware of the doctrine of the trinity, and I’m familiar with the small amount of mercy that the old testament YHWH supposedly showed to a tiny portion of humanity. I am perfectly willing to admit that there is some valuable ideas put forward in the Bible. Some of Jesus’ teachings contain very good stuff. The old testament… not so much.
I have read the Bible, and I’ve determined that the God represented in those pages is an unrelenting bully, who started to soften a little after he supposedly sent himself to Earth to save humanity from himself, but still had very little morality to offer humans that we couldn’t figure out on our own. And the Bible is also full of ridiculous fables and fake history (like the Noachian flood, Tower Of Babel, Jonah and the Whale, etc), that it is obviously a book of mythology.
To me, the important thing to do with the Bible (like any text, be it the Bhagavata Purana, Satanic Bible, Quran, or even Dianetics) is to dispose with those ridiculous tales and questionable morals (like support for slavery and genocide, and punishing children for the transgressions of their ancestors) and to recognize and absorb the good teachings. Every culture has important tales of morality.
ChuckFan said: And it’s not about people simply accepting what they are told. As a matter of fact, my former teacher and mentor in the subject always taught me to NEVER take anyone’s word as absolute truth (including preachers, teachers, or elders) in terms of scripture and Biblical teaching but to ALWAYS seek the answers for myself in the scripture so that I can know for myself.
Good for you! Questioning everything is what led me to atheism, but of course, not everyone will likely reach the same destination. Although, one important thing I notice missing from your statement is looking for information OUTSIDE of the scriptures. Do that, and you’ll find your way out of the darkness of religious blinders, and into the wonderful, open and questioning world of skepticism, friend!
ChuckFan said: Well, my friend, just as many stupid and evil things happen when people replace God with….well, anything!
I disagree. People who are open to adjusting their worldview with new facts and information are less likely to do stupid and evil things, and most versions of Christianity aren’t very inviting to new facts or learning.
(Whew! These posts are getting long!)
November 21, 2008 at 1:51 pm |
Sinned,
“The only reason Christianity has become as widespread as it is was the fact that it became the major religion of the already established and powerful Roman empire, and was spread mainly by political force and the sword.”
The Roman world at one time threw Christians to the lions in arenas for entertainment, persecuted countless and merciless, and lined the roads leading into Rome with Christians hanging, dying on crosses as a testament to the Roman intolleration of Christianity.
Christianity could be sooo popular because it serves the Only True God.
“Plus you STILL haven’t addressed the reason why, if Jesus was so incredibly amazing with so many people willing to die and suffer and do ANYTHING for him, there are no writings about him until decades after his death/resurrection.”
Let me remind you that the writings available in the Bible about Jesus, the Gospels, were indeed written decades later. However, they were written by firsthand observers of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Remember, the Jesus that claimed to be Messiah that was requested to be put to death by the Jewish religious leadership was still fresh on the minds of the leaders-even though there was probably new leadership at the time. Besides them, Jesus was also thought to have been a threat to the Roman authority with His ever growing following. With those two violent groups as adversaries not to mention the “crowd” that cried “Crucify Him,” it is absolutely a miracle that any written material about Jesus survived! Sure they came a few decades later…big deal! They came from first hand observers who were literally putting their lives on the line to talk about Jesus much less write about Him and attempt to spread His message.
“Besides, as stated before, few if any religions deny the existence of Jesus.
Care to cite any documentation of that “statistic”? I get the feeling you just made that up.”
Find me half a dozen that do not at least believe Him a historical figure. Even Muslims, the Christian haters (for the most part), do not deny that He lived.
I actually think Baal was a real god…lower case g. People worshipped it, that makes it a god. I think it was really a demonic influence however. My God one the fight on Mt. Carmel, either way.
“Anyways, how about some proof for Jesus not being dead? He established precedence in the new testament for appearing to people. Perhaps we can get him to come down off his cloud and say hello? Tonight? I could buy him a beer (or wine, if he prefers)!”
Ha, I think He would lean more to water…better for the body…but that is a different conversation entirely. Unfortunately for you, He could come tonight-to Rapture His Church (Followers) out of this world. That’s what He will do the next time He comes. Until then, we are forgiven and believe by FAITH. Faith is believing in something you can’t see…in simple language. Even though I can’t see a walking, talking, breathing bodily Jesus right now, I still believe Him. And I can still see His effect in others, and I know what He has done in me life.
I actually am having a hard time believing the name “Tom Cruise” is even in this post. Him? Suffer?
I can’t argue with you there, however. People do die for some weird things, things they believe in, nonetheless. Does it make what they believe in any more the Truth? Unfortunately, no. The difference is: Christians die for the Truth. Christians are killed and willingly lay down their lives out of love and because of love…not responsibility or obligation.
“You sell yourself short. You are the one who has become able to overcome your shyness. God had nothing to do with it, other than providing some impetus for you to do it.”
Have to disagree because I know what happened to me. You don’t. Jesus changed my life. He gave me life, in fact. He’s the change. I can’t unshy myself…I can’t even make you believe the Truth. Only God can do things like that.
November 21, 2008 at 3:30 pm |
Dear Sinned,
You say: “I have read the Bible, and I’ve determined that the God represented in those pages is an unrelenting bully, who started to soften a little after he supposedly sent himself to Earth to save humanity from himself, but still had very little morality to offer humans that we couldn’t figure out on our own.”
So, would you say we have figured it out yet? Because this place still comes off to me as a world of hate, murder, thievery, lies and every other thing that makes up an immoral world. If we could just figure it out on our own then why is humankind still caught up in immorality? Because we’re just that, human. Point is, God did not send Jesus into the world to teach a few good moral lessons and then simply die like every other man. He sent Him to make a way of salvation from our immorality. THAT is what makes Him so different from all the others.
As for the Bible, how do you explain the fact that it has been one of the most read and sought after books for centuries. Not to mention there have been worldwide attempts on numerous occasions to destroy it yet it has overcome and flourished even to this day. The OT is the history leading up to Christ. It paints a vivid picture of the world’s need for a Messiah, one who can save it from eternal damnation. That picture is still being painted today whether we see it or not; the only difference is that now we have a choice which leaves us no excuse. Also, I can assure you I have questioned and doubted (like other Christians and yourself) and have searched for answers outside of the Bible. Funny thing is, I always end up feeling empty and less satisfied with those other sources. Can’t explain it really, must be something in the scripture….However, it is times like these when I’m talking to people like yourself (no offense intended) that make me realize why I love God so much and why He needed to save me. Thank you for that!
Remember, ignorance may be bliss, but bliss, my friend, is oftentimes the main ingredient in destruction. Surely, all this must mean something to you, though. Why else would you be debating it so adamantly?
November 21, 2008 at 3:31 pm |
Oh, and sorry, I really meant for that to be shorter!
November 22, 2008 at 12:21 am |
What I want to know is why you think only atheists reject your concept of Jesus.
I’m not an atheist, but I don’t believe in the Christian Sky-Daddy version of God, and I believe the Bible to be a collection of tribal stories, parables, myths, and legends from an ancient culture that still believed in a geocentric universe. I also can’t accept an alleged God or God-form that supposedly tells his followers to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, heal the sick, and love their neighbors, but hose followers usually do the exact OPPOSITE. If Jesus is so loving, then was are so many Christians so hateful? If God is universal, then why do Christians limit God so much?
Maybe Sky-Daddy makes Christians feel better, but I find that perception of God to be so illogical that if it were true, then the universe as it exists must be a lie. In other words, it doesn’t work.
So, your question to “atheists” about not accepting Jesus is both insulting to the billions of people who do believe in God – just not YOUR God, and limiting to the atheists themselves who are well aware that theism isn’t just a matter of “Jesus or no Jesus.” It’s not that atheists simply don’t believe in Jesus… they don’t believe that any of these religious mythologies have any basis in reality and that God is a myth. Not just your God – ANY god. And the rest of us – Deists, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus – don’t accept your version of Jesus because we believe in other concepts of the universe as a whole and simply don’t believe in Jesus the same way you don’t believe in Ganesha, Cernunnos, or Zeus.
If Christians were able to pull their heads out of their Christo-centric world view long enough to simply ACKNOWLEDGE the existence of other major world views and to UNDERSTAND their global neighbors, then maybe the rest of us wouldn’t find you people quite so annoying.
November 22, 2008 at 11:47 am |
The Roman world at one time threw Christians to the lions in arenas for entertainment, persecuted countless and merciless, and lined the roads leading into Rome with Christians hanging, dying on crosses as a testament to the Roman intolleration of Christianity.
Yup. And then they turned around and did the exact same things to non-Christians for the next 1500 years. Once again, Christianity hasn’t been successful because it’s true, it has become so popular through politics and force.
Christianity could be sooo popular because it serves the Only True God.
Possible, but unlikely.
Let me remind you that the writings available in the Bible about Jesus, the Gospels, were indeed written decades later. However, they were written by firsthand observers of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
We don’t know that. In fact, we don’t even know who exactly WROTE the gospels. All we know is that a few hundred years after Jesus supposedly died, the Romans held a number of political meetings to determine what would be in the new testament canon.
Remember, the Jesus that claimed to be Messiah that was requested to be put to death by the Jewish religious leadership was still fresh on the minds of the leaders-even though there was probably new leadership at the time. Besides them, Jesus was also thought to have been a threat to the Roman authority with His ever growing following. With those two violent groups as adversaries not to mention the “crowd” that cried “Crucify Him,” it is absolutely a miracle that any written material about Jesus survived!
The Romans were notoriously brutal in how they handled rebellions, and they had no issues about documenting how they dealt with them. Strange that they never documented a single thing about the surging throng of Jesus followers.
Sure they came a few decades later…big deal!
It IS a big deal. It casts doubt on exactly how important Jesus supposedly was if nobody but some unknown writers who claimed to be first-hand witnesses wrote anything down about him. Especially since they waited DECADES.
Find me half a dozen that do not at least believe Him a historical figure. Even Muslims, the Christian haters (for the most part), do not deny that He lived.
Oh, no. I’m not going to do YOUR work for you. And do you even know WHY Muslims think Jesus lived? Let me tell you, it isn’t because they believe the Bible is true.
I actually think Baal was a real god…lower case g. People worshipped it, that makes it a god. I think it was really a demonic influence however. My God one the fight on Mt. Carmel, either way.
No, Baal did not exist. He was a creation of mankind, just like YHWH. There was no battle royale between gods on Mt. Carmel.
Unfortunately for you, He could come tonight-to Rapture His Church (Followers) out of this world. That’s what He will do the next time He comes. Until then, we are forgiven and believe by FAITH. Faith is believing in something you can’t see…in simple language. Even though I can’t see a walking, talking, breathing bodily Jesus right now, I still believe Him. And I can still see His effect in others, and I know what He has done in me life.
All I hear in the above paragraph is an excuse for why you KNOW Jesus won’t come visit me in person. Miracles don’t happen (especially like they used to in the Bible), and Jesus was never resurrected. As for his “effect” on others, that has nothing to do with Jesus – those people have changed their lives on their own. They’ve used a belief in a mythical figure as a basis for that, but it doesn’t lend any credence to whether or not that figure ever existed.
I actually am having a hard time believing the name “Tom Cruise” is even in this post. Him? Suffer?
Sure, he suffers for Scientology about as much as any Christian in North America does.
Does it make what they believe in any more the Truth? Unfortunately, no. The difference is: Christians die for the Truth. Christians are killed and willingly lay down their lives out of love and because of love…not responsibility or obligation.
So you say, but lots of other people lay down their lives because they love their gods. You’re making an assertion with no evidence to back it up.
Have to disagree because I know what happened to me. You don’t. Jesus changed my life.
Well, I made myself “unshy” without god, so it’s understandable that I believe you could do the same, don’t you think?
He gave me life, in fact. He’s the change. I can’t unshy myself…I can’t even make you believe the Truth. Only God can do things like that.
Well, god is omnipotent, so he knows what it would take to convince me he exists. I guess he just doesn’t like me or want me to believe in him. Either that, or he just plain doesn’t exist (and it SURE looks that way).
ChuckFan said: So, would you say we have figured it out yet? Because this place still comes off to me as a world of hate, murder, thievery, lies and every other thing that makes up an immoral world.
Well, of course. Humans are able to come up with morals without god. It doesn’t mean all people follow them, no matter WHAT the source of those morals.
Chuckfan said: If we could just figure it out on our own then why is humankind still caught up in immorality?
And Jewish society under God’s rules had no immorality? I’ll tell you two things we figured out before God did: slavery and genocide are immoral. God apparently never had much of a problem with either.
Chuckfan said: As for the Bible, how do you explain the fact that it has been one of the most read and sought after books for centuries. Not to mention there have been worldwide attempts on numerous occasions to destroy it yet it has overcome and flourished even to this day.
Really? A religious book that wasn’t even compiled until it obtained major state support by the Romans, and was subsequently spread by the sword across it’s large empire is supposed to impress me by its popularity? I’m more impressed by the Satanic Verses by Salmon Rushdie – you want to talk about a book that has been attempted to be destroyed, that is one of them!
The OT is the history leading up to Christ.
And most of the early history is fake, leading up to about the kingdom of David & Solomon.
Also, I can assure you I have questioned and doubted (like other Christians and yourself) and have searched for answers outside of the Bible. Funny thing is, I always end up feeling empty and less satisfied with those other sources.
Well, that’s your opinion, and you’re welcome to it. I find the opposite: the unicorns, ridiculous mythology, incorrect history, and general evil of the Jewish god contained in those pages to be a very unsatisfying basis to live one’s life on.
Can’t explain it really, must be something in the scripture…
Nope, it’s probably just you. Like how some people love rap music, while others hate it.
However, it is times like these when I’m talking to people like yourself (no offense intended) that make me realize why I love God so much and why He needed to save me. Thank you for that!
Hey, use whatever crutch you need to make it through the day, so long as you don’t hurt anybody else.
Remember, ignorance may be bliss, but bliss, my friend, is oftentimes the main ingredient in destruction. Surely, all this must mean something to you, though. Why else would you be debating it so adamantly?
I could say the same thing to you about ignorance and bliss, and you’ll dismiss my comment the same why I dismiss yours: as incorrect and a little condescending. And of course “all this” means something to me: religion in general and Christianity in particular (in my locality, anyways) has an affect on the people and culture around me that is rarely positive. It’s in my best interest to try to help believers come to terms with their mythology and learn to think rationally about the world around them.
The world is a wonderful place, but I didn’t really start appreciating it until I became an atheist. I’m sure you’d say the same thing about Christianity.
November 24, 2008 at 5:34 am |
Sinned,
What is your locality exactly? And unicorns? Really?
November 24, 2008 at 1:22 pm |
Michelle,
Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my blog. I think this is your first time to comment…correct me if I’m mistaken, and thank you. Also, before I address some of your comments, you mentioned Deists, Muslims, Jews, Pagans…which are you?
“What I want to know is why you think only atheists reject your concept of Jesus.”
I’m not naive (spelling?) enough to think that only atheists don’t reject Jesus. Part of the reason I directed this post directly to atheists is because of the large number of atheists I was having discussions with at the time.
“I also can’t accept an alleged God or God-form that supposedly tells his followers to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, heal the sick, and love their neighbors, but hose followers usually do the exact OPPOSITE. If Jesus is so loving, then was are so many Christians so hateful? ”
America is a predominantly Christian nation…I am sure you would agree. It was founded mostly on Christian principles on the basis of Religous freedom. America gives more away to other countries in need…food, water, clothing, personel to assist in disaster relief….than any other country on earth. Surely this is obvious that this stems from the Christianity of America in that it ties directly with Christian principles. No Muslim countries sent America help and assistence after Katrina or 9-11. Also, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. And, Christians aren’t perfect either. But, think of groups like Red Cross, Salvation Army, Operation Christmas Child and countless other Christian orgs that do the stuff you said we don’t do. We could do better…I’ll give you that.
“I find that perception of God to be so illogical that if it were true, then the universe as it exists must be a lie.”
Logic can’t explain the God I serve. Logic can’t explain why God became a man to die in the place of man. Logic can’t explain that kind of love. But, if I could explain and understand God, He wouldn’t be God.
Atheists, as explained before, were the targeted audience for this post…not necessarily other religions. However, to address your later comments, anyone who does not repent and turn to Jesus Christ will go to Hell…according to the Bible. Jesus is the only God.
The great thing is if you go there, it was your choice. You could choose to follow Jesus right now. He died in your place. He was resurrected so you could have eternal life. He loves you that much. Illogical, I know, but Amazing, nonetheless. You are a sinner, but so am I. The difference is, I am forgiven, you aren’t. But, you can be.
November 24, 2008 at 1:47 pm |
Sinned,
Before I even get started, let me take a few lines and say how much I appreciate the time you put into your responses. I don’t mind lengthiness at all.
“Yup. And then they turned around and did the exact same things to non-Christians for the next 1500 years. Once again, Christianity hasn’t been successful because it’s true, it has become so popular through politics and force.”
What about America? Religious freedom. No laws state that you have to be a Christian or you will be kicked out. No-believe Jesus or die here. Yet, Christianity still became the dominant religion. Probably because it IS real.
“It IS a big deal. It casts doubt on exactly how important Jesus supposedly was if nobody but some unknown writers who claimed to be first-hand witnesses wrote anything down about him. Especially since they waited DECADES.”
Atheists pretty much base your beliefs…lack of beliefs…on scientific theory-not fact-of a Big Bang that happened billions and billions of years ago that somebody wrote about billions and billions of years later who wasn’t even there, according to your teaching. I’ll take decades over billions and billions of years anyday.
“And do you even know WHY Muslims think Jesus lived?”
Actually, they give credence to Him as being a good prophet. They will say He was a good teacher, person, and if you catch a Muslim on a good day, maybe even philosopher. The problem they have with Him…them and alot of religions for that matter…is they don’t believe He was/is God. We Christians do. We believe He died in the place of the world making a way for the world to live forever. That is probably the biggest differece between us and them…there are several more.
“No, Baal did not exist. He was a creation of mankind, just like YHWH. There was no battle royale between gods on Mt. Carmel.”
Were you there? I talked to Somebody this morning Who was.
“As for his “effect” on others, that has nothing to do with Jesus – those people have changed their lives on their own.”
Some of them may have. But I know exactly what Jesus did for me and Who He is to me.
“Sure, he suffers for Scientology about as much as any Christian in North America does.”
Sooo…none.
“Well, god is omnipotent, so he knows what it would take to convince me he exists. I guess he just doesn’t like me or want me to believe in him. Either that, or he just plain doesn’t exist (and it SURE looks that way).”
Check out Matthew 27:15-28:6. He would have suffered through all the things described here if you would have been the only person to ever live. He cares about you and loves you and wants you more than you or I know.
November 24, 2008 at 1:53 pm |
Sinned,
Sorry to butt in here…ok…not really, this is my blog.
“It’s in my best interest to try to help believers come to terms with their mythology and learn to think rationally about the world around them.”
Why? According to you, we all end up nothingness. So, why bother?
November 25, 2008 at 7:18 am |
ChuckFan said: Sinned,
What is your locality exactly?
I won’t give my EXACT location (I don’t have a GPS), but I’m located in the Okanagan, which is south-central British Columbia, Canada.
ChuckFan said: And unicorns? Really?
Yeah, unicorns! Haven’t you read the King James version of the Bible? They’ve got lotsa neat mythological creatures in there! It still doesn’t make the Bible myths as cool as the Norse or Greek tales, but it’s still kinda fun!
For some great unicorn action, check out:
Num 23:22
Num 24:8
Job 39:9
Job 39:10
Psa 29:6
Psa 92:10
Nevigrof said: Atheists pretty much base your beliefs…lack of beliefs…on scientific theory-not fact-of a Big Bang that happened billions and billions of years ago that somebody wrote about billions and billions of years later who wasn’t even there, according to your teaching. I’ll take decades over billions and billions of years anyday.
Ahh, but there is a very BIG difference between the big bang theory (which of course is a theory! You DO know what a scientific theory is, don’t you? Here’s a hint: it doesn’t mean “guess”) and the belief that Jesus was resurrected. Scientists came to the big bang theory by using EVIDENCE. They look at the world around them and gather information to answer questions about why things are the way they are, and how they work. Scientists repeatedly examine facts and absorb new information into their theories in an attempt to explain how things came to be.
When it comes to the tales in the Bible, you’re accepting some unknown writers at their word that decades before him, some guy named Jesus performed amazing miracles and rose from the dead to save humanity. Jesus hasn’t been seen since that time, (unless you believe the Mormons) and there is no corroborating evidence that he ever existed, other than what is written in those non-eyewitness accounts. You ignore evidence that shows that the Bible is likely a collection of mythology mixed with history, which is the OPPOSITE of what scientists do when formulating and examining their theories.
Your comparison really breaks down when you actually analyze it, and I’m afraid it makes me less likely to trust you intellectually if you think that unknown bronze age writers, who saw angels and demons behind every tree, are more reliable than modern day scientists. That disappoints me, because you seem like an intelligent person!
Actually, they give credence to Him as being a good prophet. They will say He was a good teacher, person, and if you catch a Muslim on a good day, maybe even philosopher. The problem they have with Him…them and alot of religions for that matter…is they don’t believe He was/is God. We Christians do. We believe He died in the place of the world making a way for the world to live forever. That is probably the biggest differece between us and them…there are several more.
Exactly. Muslims only believe Jesus existed because because Mohammed wrote about him, not because Muslims trust the Bible. The tales written about Jesus in the Quran are 600 years older than the gospels, and are even more suspect than the New Testament, but only because of the scale of time. If Mohammed hadn’t made up his version of the Jesus fable, Muslims certainly wouldn’t think Jesus existed.
Were you there? I talked to Somebody this morning Who was.
Funny thing – I bet he didn’t say anything back. If he did, I recommend seeking professional psychiatric help. And I mean that. If you’re hearing voices that you don’t think are your own mind, that’s a good indication of serious mental problems. If he didn’t say anything back, I’d say you have a one-way relationship that is probably indicative of emotional abuse, or at least proof that the deity in question isn’t really there.
Some of them may have. But I know exactly what Jesus did for me and Who He is to me.
Sure you do. But it remains that YOU are the one who made any changes in your life. Jesus doesn’t deserve any credit for what you, yourself did.
Sooo…none.
You’re catching on! You’d better stop that, or I’m going to start thinking you might actually be capable of logical thinking!
Check out Matthew 27:15-28:6. He would have suffered through all the things described here if you would have been the only person to ever live. He cares about you and loves you and wants you more than you or I know.
And yet this omnipotent person with all the power in the known universe can’t do the one thing that he knows will work to get me to believe in him. Your god is either a jerk for wanting me to suffer for eternity, or so powerless as to be non-existant.
Why? According to you, we all end up nothingness. So, why bother?
Hey! I said I was an atheist, not a nihilist! We humans are social creatures – we evolved to live in social groups which means we find social contact and connections very important. That and the fact that, as far as we can tell so far, we’re the only intelligent (and I use that term loosely) creatures around in our locale of the universe, so that means my family, my friends, and my fellow man are the most important things to me! I just want to help you out a bit. Along the way, I can also enjoy a stimulating conversation! Win-win, baby! Plus, as you said, it’s your blog, and you asked!
November 25, 2008 at 4:43 pm |
Sinned,
“That disappoints me, because you seem like an intelligent person!”
I appreciate the sentiment; however, if I am thought ignorant by an intelligent person because I believe something I can’t see and trust that God used people to write the Bible about His Son, Jesus, and His redemptive plan for mankind, then so be it. I’d rather have my faith in Jesus than all the intelligence in the world. Only one of them leads to a desirable eternal destination.
“Funny thing – I bet he didn’t say anything back. If he did, I recommend seeking professional psychiatric help. And I mean that. If you’re hearing voices that you don’t think are your own mind, that’s a good indication of serious mental problems. If he didn’t say anything back, I’d say you have a one-way relationship that is probably indicative of emotional abuse, or at least proof that the deity in question isn’t really there.”
You tried to put me in a lose-lose here. If He did talk back, I’m a lunatic. If not, He’s obviously not real. Well, He did. Not audibly, but He did. I hear Him when I pray, read His Word, through admiring His creation, other people…etc. If you consider me crazy, fine…I consider you blind. But, I talked to Somebody about you who can make you see.
“Sure you do. But it remains that YOU are the one who made any changes in your life. Jesus doesn’t deserve any credit for what you, yourself did.”
I don’t want to get all preachy on you, but I do ask that you read my blog series on what God says about atheism. The Bible speaks directly to people who give glory to man, creatures, animals…anything other than God.
He doesn’t want you to suffer…that’s why He died in you place….suffered for you. All you have to do is repent and accept what He’s done! Its ridiculously simple, but some make it sooo hard! Maybe you have trouble accepting Him because It is sooo simple! If It was really hard, alot of people couldn’t do it.
Just wondering, but what is that one thing?
You may not be a nihilist, but honestly, what’s the point? You live, you have good thoughts, good ideas, you die, your done…according to you. Theres nothing more. No point, or meaning. Why even bother talking to me or anybody? And, if my God isn’t real, all I’m going to be when I die is dirt…so, why waste your time trying to disprove?
My God is real. And, if you are wrong, your eternity is really going to hurt. Jesus loves you; I know what His love feels like; and I just want you to experience it!
November 26, 2008 at 6:59 am |
II’d rather have my faith in Jesus than all the intelligence in the world. Only one of them leads to a desirable eternal destination.
And THAT is exactly why Christianity in general and religion specifically scares me: people place their faith above anything else of value on this planet. Intelligence? Doesn’t mean a thing. Rationality? Worthless in the face of eternity. Other humans? They only have value because my holy book says they do.
You tried to put me in a lose-lose here. If He did talk back, I’m a lunatic.
I’m guilty as charged there , but believe me, I had a reason for saying that other than just trying to score a rhetorical point. This is another problem that I have with religion is that many people claim their god is talking to them. For someone who actually is suffering from a mental health issue, religion can complicate things and prevent a sick person from seeking help. I don’t actually think you’re crazy, but I am not a psychiatrist!
If not, He’s obviously not real. Well, He did. Not audibly, but He did. I hear Him when I pray, read His Word, through admiring His creation, other people…etc. If you consider me crazy, fine…I consider you blind. But, I talked to Somebody about you who can make you see.
It’s a funny thing, but when I pray, I never hear anything and I never see anything. I’ve prayed thousands of times, and I’ve tried praying to lots of deities (YHWH, Allah, Satan, Dionysius, Xenu, etc) and they all seem to have the same answer for me: silence. Of course, you’ll justify this one of two ways: 1) I’m not listening “properly” and/or I’m not attuned to god’s voice or 2) I don’t have the right heart condition. Sadly, you can’t accept the third option that explains why so many people have religious experiences equivalent to yours, but from different gods, and that option is that it’s all in your head. Believing in god makes you feel good about yourself. It connects you to your fellow Christians, and helps you feel like you know where you belong in the universe, but that doesn’t make it true.
I don’t want to get all preachy on you, but I do ask that you read my blog series on what God says about atheism.
Done. Short response to it: thanks for showing you know nothing about atheists. You claim to have been in a lot of discussions with atheists, but you apparently weren’t listening at all. You won’t accept what they say, because it contradicts what your book of mythology says, and we all know that if any evidence or opinion contradicts the Bible, it must be wrong.
The Bible speaks directly to people who give glory to man, creatures, animals…anything other than God.
Yeah, because an athlete or craftsman or scientist or doctor who dedicates their life to labouring in order to achieve lofty goals don’t deserve any of the credit or glory for what they’ve done. That would be awfully immodest of them! Instead, they should be passing it on to the sky fairy who made it all possible by getting things rolling billions of years… sorry, I mean thousands of years ago. People should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour instead of having to pass all of it on to a greedy dictator.
He doesn’t want you to suffer…that’s why He died in you place….suffered for you.
So that’s why he created hell? The place of eternal torment he designed because he didn’t want us to go there? Ridiculous!
Here’s yet another one of the opportunities where you and I can prove that we have better moral standards than YHWH: would you agree with me that it would be immoral for a father to build a torture chamber in his basement, and then create impossible-to-keep rules that, if broken, require his children to spend the rest of their lives being tortured in that room? To me, it doesn’t sound like a very loving act to create a torture chamber for your own children!
All you have to do is repent and accept what He’s done! Its ridiculously simple, but some make it sooo hard! Maybe you have trouble accepting Him because It is sooo simple! If It was really hard, alot of people couldn’t do it.
I’m sorry, but belief in god is as simple as belief in fairies at the bottom of a well. Sure the belief might work, until you start investigating whether it’s true or not. Then, when you don’t find any evidence of their existence, there is only two things to do: create apologetics to explain WHY there is no evidence (they don’t want to be found, it’s part of their plan, they’re invisible and smarter than us, etc). So for a person willing to do research, belief in god is NOT ridiculously simple, it is simply ridiculous.
Just wondering, but what is that one thing?
Let’s see – Jesus could appear in front of me and we could hang around for a few days. Perhaps he could make an amputee friend’s limb grow back. Quite frankly, does it matter? Even if I don’t know what it would take, HE would! (But he still wouldn’t do it, I’ll wager!)
You may not be a nihilist, but honestly, what’s the point? You live, you have good thoughts, good ideas, you die, your done…according to you. Theres nothing more. No point, or meaning. Why even bother talking to me or anybody?
Wow, you really don’t enjoy ANY of the great things about life, do you? I can see why you have to cling so tightly to a ridiculous creature like YHWH if you can’t seem to find any reasons to enjoy this short existence we get! The touch of my wife’s hand, a cold European ale on a hot day, studying the vast starry night – there’s so many wonderful things to experience in the average of 70 years we have that who has TIME to waste it on imaginary ghosts?
And, if my God isn’t real, all I’m going to be when I die is dirt…so, why waste your time trying to disprove?
Because of your last paragraph! Here you are, a fellow human being who is obviously so frightened and incapable of finding meaning in this life that you need to have an imaginary friend spell everything out for you! What a horrid existence, but you don’t have to live that way! Life is full of wonderous meaning, but you have to discover it for yourself. You’ve decided to search an old dusty tome for meaning, and all it tells you is that there is nothing outside of what that book tells you. What a waste of a perfectly good life! I want to help you because I sure wouldn’t want to be stuck in the same pitiful situation as you are!
My God is real. And, if you are wrong, your eternity is really going to hurt. Jesus loves you; I know what His love feels like; and I just want you to experience it!
If your god is real, I want nothing to do with him and his horrid morality and naked threats like you stated above. His fake brand of love pales in comparison to the real love I experience from real people: my family and friends. Keep your adult version of Santa Claus, because only other humans can give me the kind of love I need and desire.
December 1, 2008 at 1:36 pm |
Sinned,
My appologies for the late reply. Had a busy Thanksgiving.
“And THAT is exactly why Christianity in general and religion specifically scares me”
Faith in something I can’t see does not equal stupidity as many atheists suppose. In fact, I would dare say it takes more intelligence to admit to not knowing everything about Someone but because of Who that Someone is and what that Someone has accomplished trusting Him anyway.
“I don’t actually think you’re crazy, but I am not a psychiatrist!”
Well, I appreciate that. And, I can actually also appreciate the rhetoric…clever. When we, or me at least, say that God speaks to us, we don’t mean audibly. I have never, to my knowledge, heard God’s audible voice. Maybe that comforts you a little! What we mean is: When we read His Word, pray, talk to other people, and all kinds of other things, we can sense God speaking to us. I can’t explain it really. It is something that has to be experienced. But, when a person “hears” God, they know it.
“Believing in god makes you feel good about yourself. It connects you to your fellow Christians, and helps you feel like you know where you belong in the universe, but that doesn’t make it true.”
Let me share a portion of Christianity that a lot of Christians skirt. The closer I get to God and the more I get to know Him, the worse I feel about myself, but the better I feel about Who He is. He’s perfect, I’m not. He’s sinless, I’m not. My best day of life would send me straight to Hell, without Him. Feel good about myself? I have nothing to feel good about other than Jesus Christ’s work in my life.
I would actually say that you don’t hear from God because you don’t believe He exists. The Bible says over and over that you must repent (change your mind about God, sin, youself-meaning realize you are a sinner, believe in God His death burial and resurrection, and turn from your sin to God) and BELIEVE. If you repent and believe, I promise you’ll hear more than you can imagine.
“if any evidence or opinion contradicts the Bible, it must be wrong.”
All evidence…real, not computer generated evidence…does nothing but confirm the Word of God. All opinions that contradict the Bible do not concern me or the legitimacy of the Bible because they are nothing more than opinions, not facts or truth.
“People should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour instead of having to pass all of it on to a greedy dictator.”
Keep it yourself and enjoy it for roughly 70, 75 years. Give it along with your life to Jesus where both belong(not a greedy dictator…He doesn’t force His way, if He did, you would be a Christian) and you can enjoy eternal bliss in Heaven. I’ll give my all to Him.
“So that’s why he created hell? The place of eternal torment he designed because he didn’t want us to go there?”
Actually, He created hell as a punishment for rebellion against God, sin, meant for Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him in his rebellion in Heaven (if you want Biblcal ref’s I can provide them). It wasn’t intended for us at all. However, when Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God in the Genesis, in the Garden of Eden, their sin had to be punished, and ours with it. So, they trusted God, God shed the blood of an innocent animal and covered them. On the cross, God shed the blood of the innocenct Lamb of God, Jesus, God, and washes away the sin of whoever will accept Him. For those who refuse, Hell.
“To me, it doesn’t sound like a very loving act to create a torture chamber for your own children!”
Yes, but you are completely ignoring the point of the Cross. God made the chamber, and made the rules and because He is just and perfect, He must adhere to both. Sin, breaking the rules, must be punished by death, chamber. However, the beauty of the Cross is that God loves us soo much, He would rather become one of us and suffer the chamber for us, taking our place in punishment! Say, you committed a murder and were on death row. At your trial, the judge declared “Guilty!” and sentenced you to death by the electric chair. But, then, someone stepped up from the crowd and said that they were innocent but they loved you and didn’t want you to die. And, they requested your punishment and for you to be set free. This is what Jesus did for you! You deserve death, so do I, but He took our place when no one else could!
“So for a person willing to do research, belief in god is NOT ridiculously simple, it is simply ridiculous.”
Nice word play. Look up Case for the Creator or Case for Christ on amazon by Lee Strobel, or Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. Both these guys took a non-bias approach to investigating Jesus and the accruacy of the Bible. Actually, I know Josh started out trying to disprove God, he actually might have been an atheist. Check these out. I’ve read parts of the Case for Christ, very good. He is a journalist so its very well written.
“Let’s see – Jesus could appear in front of me and we could hang around for a few days. Perhaps he could make an amputee friend’s limb grow back. Quite frankly, does it matter? Even if I don’t know what it would take, HE would! (But he still wouldn’t do it, I’ll wager!)”
Faith, man, faith. He’s allready done all He needs to do. We just have to trust Him in faith.
“Wow, you really don’t enjoy ANY of the great things about life, do you?”
My wife’s hand is soothing and lovely as well. I prefer ice cold sweet tea on a hot day, probably because I was born in the south east. Astronomy is not really my thing; however, a day on the beach and a good book make me smile.
It’s not that there aren’t things to enjoy, its just that especially from an atheist’s perspective, 70 years has got to seem REAL short in the grand scheme of things. Don’t you ever think there’s got to be something more?
I mean from your perspective, live it up for 70 years and die. From mine, live it up for 70 years for Him, and then die to live forever.
You made me smile. We are both trying to help the other person live.
Other humans will hurt, neglect, and let down. Only God is constant. Only He is truly reliable.
December 1, 2008 at 10:24 pm |
Dearest Sinned,
What’s it like in your neck of the woods? How’s the weather typically? Oh, and your “unicorns” or actually wild ox. Check out other translations.The word that is translated is the Hebrew re’em which means “ox” or “wild ox.” Don’t let yourself get carried away by taking such an uncommon word so literal. Maybe you’ve been reading too much greek mythology. Take a break and delve into some New Testament. It’ll be quite rewarding. You’ll see.